Disc Brakes | Alliance RV Owners Forum

Follow up on my post. We got the MorRyde suspension. They had to pull and reinstall the disk brakes. They must have bled them right because now there is no delay.
The brake pump makes continuous pressure. To bleed them pull the emergency release pin and it will continually pressurize while you are bleeding the brake. You need to make sure someone is filling the brake fluid reservoir while you do this.

Update: At the Alliance National Rally, the Dexter representative who was there for demos and to give a presentation said that we should NOT be useing the emergency release pin switch to bleed the brakes. It is not really robust enough to use for that purpose.
He set up a switch that plugs into the 7-pin connector, connected to a truck battery (12 V) to activate the disk pump for troubleshooting and service. Or, you can do it the old fashioned way by plugging in the 7 pin and have someone push on the brakes while you are bleeding them.

If you want to learn more, please visit our website trailer axle with disc brakes.

 

Trent

Posted 7/25/ 12:33 (#)
Subject: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

Statesville, NC

Statesville, NC

I may build another flat bed trailer within the next year or so. I have had trailers over the years with electric brakes and have had a lot of problems with them. I'm wanting to try hydraulic brakes, but I'm not sure which system I want to use. I want something simple, reliable, safe, and with good stopping power. The trailer will have two 6k or 7k axles. I thought of using a surge tongue actuator and free backing drum brakes to keep it simple. Do the free backing brakes stop as good going forward as other hydraulic drum brakes or disc brakes? I have never thought electric brakes had enough stopping power with a full axle load. I have also looked at the Kodiak disc brakes. They have a nice system that uses a hat style rotor that can go over a standard idler hub. That would be the ultimate in ease of maintenance on the wheel end. Anyone have any experience with how much braking power hydraulic drum brakes have compared to disc? To actuate the disc brakes you can either use a surge tongue or an electric hydraulic pump actuator. The surge actuator requires another circuit off the backup lights to operate a solenoid so you can back up with disc brakes. That seems like more complication I don't want. The electric hydraulic actuators are expensive, and a single bad wire connection would mean brake failure. I'm trying to weigh out the advantages and disadvantages of each system. I was thinking of going with either surge free backing drum brakes, or electric actuated disc brakes. Cost is not as big of a factor as reliability, ease of maintenance, safety, and stopping power. jodan

Posted 7/25/ 14:28 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

Bardstown, Ky

I have had the electric over hydraulic on two different gooseneck cattle trailers and the braking is awesome. Load 'er full and turn up the controller and it will stop you better than the truck without a trailer hooked up. I won't have anything else. The only problems we had were with the brake lines. The trailer company had run the brake lines from the front to the back and put them inside a pipe. After a few years the brake lines started rusting out so when we put new ones on we clamped them to the outside of the pipe and had no more problems. Trent

Posted 7/25/ 18:10 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

Statesville, NC

Statesville, NC

Drum or disc? farmer

Posted 7/25/ 18:25 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

East central Indiana

We have the same system on a gooseneck flat trailer. Awesome brakes. I belive there all drum brakes. durallymax

Posted 7/25/ 19:12 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

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Wi

What issues did you have with electric brakes? Most issues are wiring related which is often due to a poor installation or repair. The issues are magnified where corrosion is a bigger problem.  Use good wiring products, tools and practices and you will avoid a lot of headaches. 

On single wheel applications there isn't much room for a drum, so the disc brakes offer more power. On dual wheels you can fit a wide drum with wide shoes that offer very good stopping power as well.

Electric drum brakes can have plenty of stopping power on a 6 or 7k axle. Poor braking can be from assemblies made for lower weights, bad magnets, brakes being out of adjustment, needing new drums or even the occasional time a left gets put on for a right and vice versa by accident. 

The solenoid for backing is hardly complicated, its a simple wire you already have running through the trailer plug should you choose to use it.  

E/H brakes are expensive and maybe a bit overkill for the size trailer you plan to build, they are nice and do have their advantages though. You don't have to deal with any magnets or wiring running back to the wheel ends. A leaking wheel cylinder or brake line is preferred by some people over chasing wiring issues as its "easy to see". Testing magnets and finding bad wires is not really all that hard but does take a few extra tools to make life easy. The same would apply to surge hydraulic brakes as well.  Using an E/H actuator gives you a lot more control of the braking, applies the brakes faster and harder if desired, no issues with backing and you retain brakes while backing (sometimes important) and overall makes the brakes nicer to use every day than surge brakes. However they do cost more and they do require that extra wire (constant power). They also are not compatible with many built in factory brake controllers, so an aftermarket one has to be installed. Not a huge deal really. A single wire connection can mean loss of brakes with normal electric brakes as well. 

It really depends on the use as well. If you won't use it often, or want to be able to hook anything to it and still have brakes, free backing surge brakes are the simplest setup. Not the nicest for the operator, but they are simple.  If you want a lot of control and power, E/H disc brakes are very nice and low maintenance as well providing there is good wiring.  Unless you are pulling this trailer with a very small truck, I wouldn't fret about a possible issue and loosing brakes with the E/H setup. If you loose them, you can still stop just fine with the truck until you get them fixed. This is only a 12-14k trailer. If you have a late model HD pickup it will stop that load without trailer brakes just fine. Our trailers have all had their issues with brakes and the newer trucks perform very well at stopping without them. The issues we have are wiring related due to abuse of the cords and plugs primarily.

Our 31' cattle trailer has E/H drum brakes (tri axle 7k). 32' Flatbed has electric drum brakes (5" wide linings on 12k axles). Also have a smaller bumper pull trailer with two 7k axles that are electric drum.  All of these trailers when operating properly with proper loads work great. 

Trent

Posted 7/25/ 20:03 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

Statesville, NC

Statesville, NC

I've had all kinds of issues with electric brakes. The last trailer I bought, a '12 model gooseneck with two 7k axles, has not had wiring related issues because I got it with a sealed wiring harness. I did have a wire issue with the factory Dexter axle. The wire going through the axle tube wore off the insulation from moving inside the tube and shorted out. The first set of brakes on it were a fairly new design for Dexter with "self adjusting" that didn't self adjust and an adjuster fell out and jammed in between the brake and drum ruining the assembly. After that I went back to the standard manual adjust.
Also, I should mention I pull a fair amount in the mountains, so it's a LOT harder on brakes than flat land. I have a '13 model Chevy HD which has good brakes, but in the mountains the trailer needs all it can get. I load the trailer to capacity, but I don't overload it. I talked to Dexter about it, and they talked like their axles were not intended to be loaded to the max all the time, and I may need larger axles. I don't think I do because I don't have tire problems, and I'm running ST 235-16 E tires. I'm very careful to know the weight of what I'm hauling and the weight on the axles. It seems there's too many campers made with the axles near capacity for that to be a problem.
I didn't know the electric actuators required an extra wire. I'm thinking that may still be the best setup for me because I'm guessing the disc should dissipate heat better than the drum. I also looked up the parts diagrams on the Kodiak 7k and 8k brakes, and they use the same caliper and same diameter disc, so that should mean the 7k brake is more than adequate.
Would I be correct in thinking a 13" disc brake and caliper would dissipate heat better than a 12" drum?
Would my '13 Chevy hd built in brake controller be compatible with hydraulic actuators?
I still think the surge actuator and freebacking brake brake would be nice for simplicity and different tow vehicles, which there will be at times. I also like the simplicity of disc brakes. I would like to know how the actual braking power compares with freebacking hydraulic and electric which is all I have ever had. durallymax

Posted 7/25/ 21:06 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

Wi

Exactly, the issues with electric brakes are poor wiring.  Enough OEM's do a terrible job.  Adjuster issues can happen on any drum style. 

Those trucks have some serious brakes on them. The factory controller will not run E/H brakes. You have to install an aftermarket one. Prodigy P3 is nice.  The wires are under the dash for the install but you do have to run a new trailer brake wire from the controller back to the plug to replace the factory wire.  The factory trailer brake system stays active even though it does nothing once you install the aftermarket controller. All of this is explained in detail for free in the GM manuals on the body builder site.

E/H pumps do not require any additional wiring than is already present in the 7 pin connector, its just that in order to have brakes you need both the constant power and trailer braking circuits working properly. With plain electric brakes you don't have to worry about the constant power really.

I don't spend much time in true mountains but would think surge brakes would suck compared to good electric or E/H brakes.

 

WCGrad

Posted 7/25/ 21:32 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

WC Ohio

I have never had much luck with surge breaks. They don't seem to want to stop very good almost like it take a hard stop to activate them. Our trailers have always had electric drum breaks. They take some maintance and have had to rewire a couple but they will stop the truck when they are adjusted. I have never been around electric over hydraulic. Trent

Posted 7/25/ 22:05 (# - in reply to #)
Subject: RE: Hydraulic trailer brake questions, disc vs. drum, surge vs. electric actuator

Statesville, NC

Statesville, NC

If you are looking for more details, kindly visit automatic slack adjuster types.

It kind of sucks that I would have to put a brake control on a truck that already has it, in addition to a couple other trucks that may occasionally pull the trailer. Other than not having manual control, and no brakes in reverse, are there any big problems with surge actuators? It seems like the application would be in good proportion, with a tow vehicle having good brakes. I have looked at some Demco 12.5k models that are available for either disc or drum brakes.

I don't mind doing a little maintenance, and adjusting brakes, but when the self adjusters don't work that is a problem.

Back to electric brakes, the best I ever had by far was an old 7k axle made in '79 that had 12 x 3 brakes. (not 12 1/4 x 3 3/8 like the 8k) It also had a 3 1/2" tube. It was on a single axle tilt trailer that hauled some heavy loads for it's size. I never had any problem with those brakes. If you turned the controller up full voltage, they would nearly lock the wheels with a full load.